Neil Redding: AI Is Becoming a Participant – Why Leadership Must Change Now

00:00:00: But I like to say that most companies are still leading, humans or the only ones

00:00:30: in.

00:00:36: My guest today calls himself the near-futurist.

00:00:39: Neil Redding has spent more than three decades at the intersection of technology, business design and human experience.

00:00:47: He is the founder & CEO of Reading Futures.

00:00:50: His work with and advice organizations in brands including Nike Apple Visa Verizon many others And he's built his career around one central question How do we turn?

00:01:03: what is technologically possible into something organizations can actually use.

00:01:08: And right now that question participant.

00:01:18: And if machines participate in our work, or decisions and organizations then the really interesting question may no longer be what can AI do?

00:01:28: but What does that mean for us?

00:01:30: For employees from managers for CEOs and ultimately for leadership itself?

00:01:35: Neil welcome to The Big Bang podcast.

00:01:38: Thank you so much Aisha.

00:01:39: it's very good to be with here.

00:01:42: Neil, let's start with the title you've given yourself.

00:01:45: You call yourselves The Near Future.

00:01:48: What is a new feature that you are focused on and why near?

00:01:53: Yes so as mentioned thank-you for this kind of introduction.

00:01:57: I have been doing technology work building on computer science and philosophy degrees For last thirty years.

00:02:02: software engineering and then innovation work.

00:02:05: So i always very interested in what becoming technologically possible that can be applied to practical outcomes in business.

00:02:16: I've always been interested in what's emerging, so the new possibility and The reality now is that the next twelve-to twenty four months Is by far the most critical period That i've seen In my thirty five year career.

00:02:32: if businesses don't get the Next twelve to twenty four month right As AI, as you said is becoming an active participant in our work.

00:02:42: I think businesses that don't get this right are going to diverge from those who do and it's a very critical moment.

00:02:49: so... This near future of the next twelve-to twenty four months is the most important future for us to get right.

00:02:56: Okay good to know!

00:02:57: And how far ahead can companies realistically look today?

00:03:01: We're talking about five or six years.

00:03:04: what would you say?

00:03:06: You know, in terms of how rapidly AI is evolving and how rapidly things are changing certainly in the technology environment.

00:03:14: And then even in the business and geopolitical environment I think we have this experience across The board of Things can change significantly from day to day week-to-week and so much Is uncertain?

00:03:28: So i Think what's become clear is that companies as well as all of us need to develop the ability to act amid conditions of uncertainty, right?

00:03:41: I think uncertainty is kind of a new normal.

00:03:45: From a technology and business perspective which is where i come from...I think companies really do best by focusing on what is emerging now and how can they become more agile or better at integrating new capabilities as they emerge, you know?

00:04:03: So that's where I really focus.

00:04:06: And let's talk about what we are getting wrong about AI.

00:04:10: a lot of people are talking about AI right now like We are doing Now.

00:04:15: What most of them Getting Wrong?

00:04:17: so mostly People and business leaders Are treating AI As another tool Another software application Another enterprise solution to integrate To add how they're already doing work, how their organizations and their people are already doing.

00:04:34: This is not the best way to get the greatest value out of AI.

00:04:38: we can talk more about the organizational redesign in the role redesigned that's really required.

00:04:43: but I'd like to say most companies still leading humans or only ones in a room as you said as AI take some active roles becomes an active participant.

00:04:57: Leadership needs to change because now we're not leading just humans anymore.

00:05:01: So I think that's mostly what people are getting wrong about AI.

00:05:07: and do you thing?

00:05:07: We need a new kind of Change management or something like that,

00:05:13: I Think we do.

00:05:13: You know um i have this framework That I call orchestration.

00:05:19: then we can speak About A little bit Later.

00:05:21: But Instead Of planning and then executing to plan the way we've been used too familiar with for many, many decades.

00:05:31: I think that speed of change...the speed how new capabilities are evolving showing up not just with AI but also people using it interacting with AI requires a new mode of organizational management And i speak in my keynote about how orchestration is a way to lead that actually takes advantage of the best human capabilities and technology or AI capabilities.

00:06:03: So, yes it's new kind organizational management

00:06:06: And you mentioned it already from tool to participant.

00:06:10: This brings us, um...to what I think is one of our most interesting ideas.

00:06:15: for years we have described technology as a tool something humans use but you are saying AI's becoming something fundamentally different and You describe AI As moving from the tool to participants.

00:06:28: What change?

00:06:30: Why does that distinction matter?

00:06:33: Yes so You know, I like to say that for Millions of years right as long as humans or earlier you know proto-humans have existed We've always been the ones that have led The work.

00:06:47: Right?

00:06:47: And then work has been around for a long time But it's always been human life.

00:06:52: we've had the ideas.

00:06:53: we do do the work We review the work weed edit the work And we use tools, whether it's agriculture or metalworking.

00:07:03: Or in the Industrial Revolution and even The Modern Office right?

00:07:06: We used tools to do tasks... ...and what is happening now Is that as AI is able To do more of this work... ...we humans are shifting actually from primarily Doers Of Work to mostly Deciders Of Work.

00:07:27: deep shift around that as well.

00:07:30: That results from AI taking a more active role, being doing more of the work.

00:07:35: so we're at this moment where we are shifting something we've been familiar with for as long.

00:07:42: humans have existed into new mode engagement-withwork when mostly making decisions.

00:07:51: This is why I say in next two years is the most critical in our entire career, certainly UNI and that of business leaders.

00:08:03: And I think you know...the history of work.

00:08:06: Would you say AI's not just a new technology like the web or something before?

00:08:13: It's something completely different?

00:08:20: The simple thing again is that it's no longer a tool we can use to do tasks, right?

00:08:26: And the huge advantage of AI taking more active role and being available and capable of taking a more active roll.

00:08:34: Is when you know... When we do task or even software tools To do tasks to execute workflows.

00:08:45: there are limits on what we need to ask for Right?

00:08:49: We can execute tasks, you know to the limit of our imagination.

00:08:53: But if we allow AI which is trained on sort of the entire corpus of human capability and work If we give it a brief...we're giving this brief To very intelligent entity right that can then execute well beyond what any individual Human knows or has expertise in.

00:09:18: you know, so we get this fundamentally different result when we invite AI to be a participant versus just using it.

00:09:26: To do tasks like a tool?

00:09:28: So that's the huge opportunity and the huge shift I think is creating a lot of challenge for us those who are used doing their work.

00:09:37: yes

00:09:38: You're saying Huge Opportunity & Huge Chance For Us And Not A Huge Danger.

00:09:44: Well...I Think I think it's kind of all the above, you know.

00:09:50: It has been said countless times right?

00:09:55: Any sufficiently powerful tool technology capability have both dangers and huge opportunities.

00:10:08: we're already seeing AI is causing humanity businesses governments to rethink in a very rapid way, like how do we manage it?

00:10:20: How did we control it.

00:10:22: How did get the benefits without exposing ourselves to greatest risks or dangers of it?

00:10:30: and as you know right last couple years especially this year.

00:10:34: I think everyone from China US to EU every other kind government non-government agency or organization grappling with this topic, right?

00:10:46: So I think we're at a moment where as humanity and business leaders were coming together to answer these questions about risks and opportunities.

00:10:56: Together!

00:10:57: And i actually think that you know Big Bang is great gathering of leaders who are going.

00:11:05: Yeah, we have to figure it out there.

00:11:08: You've used another phrase that I find very powerful humans are moving from doers to deciders?

00:11:14: What does actually look like in practice legend?

00:11:17: let's imagine a normal company five years From now marketing team my finance department and management team.

00:11:24: what our humans doing differently compared today?

00:11:29: Yes So i think the easiest way they answer this shift from Doers To Deciders is Whatever the work is that you are doing as a Individual contributor, we could say or as a leader.

00:11:42: As a manager has an executive There's always in each role at each level work that you were familiar with doing and for all of that work AI Is increasingly able to do a lot of what?

00:11:57: You've done in that work for, and this is true of myself as well.

00:12:02: I'm finding every day things that i've done...that i'm used to doing AI can do!

00:12:06: And so if i'm going to get the benefit of AI doing this work-I need to move up a level right into a role where my role was now primarily making decisions about how to brief..how to assign the AI with outcomes not just tasks but here's what.

00:12:29: And then I make decisions when the AI produces that outcome, you know is this good enough?

00:12:35: Does this need to change?

00:12:37: are there risks if i were to deliver this pitch or publish this document.

00:12:42: Or push this software into production right whatever it is?

00:12:48: um so my role as a human and all of our roles I think in the next five years are going to move into this decider role, which is more its higher stakes in almost every case.

00:13:03: Right?

00:13:04: Because I think the vast majority of people not true of leaders right but the vast minority of People In The Working World show up and do a job that someone else defined.

00:13:19: Someone Else Told Them What To Do And so They're not engaging with the stakes, you know With the consequences of the decisions they make Because they are just doing what someone else decided that should do.

00:13:32: But as more and more we all deciding And I think five years from now this shift will largely be Not complete but i think We'll in a new mode of mostly deciders.

00:13:45: Um...I Think we'll have having very different experience and operating.

00:13:51: The opportunity here is that humans can be much more kind of sophisticated, right?

00:13:56: In our decision making.

00:13:58: We make decisions at a higher stakes and greater consequences and high impact.

00:14:05: so I'm excited about it.

00:14:08: Yeah And do you think we are actually prepared for that?

00:14:12: because making decision decisions exercising judgment and taking responsibility can Be much more harder than simply completing a task.

00:14:23: It's true.

00:14:23: That's true, I mean II know when I say Decision-making is higher stakes it's more challenging.

00:14:29: You know remember years ago?

00:14:31: I heard Jeff Bezos the founder in CEO of Amazon saying that he designs his work, so he only has to make three important decisions a day.

00:14:42: And as CEO... He recognized that the decisions that he needs to make are high impact.

00:14:51: they're very important their high stakes They have huge consequence for the company and So he shows up to work being focused on these three most important decisions.

00:15:03: As people use AI, you know agentic AI more and more I've had the experience many people have had The experience that we get tired much more quickly right?

00:15:12: You know if we could do the work That were normally familiar with doing for eight or ten hours a day.

00:15:18: We might get tired of Delegating work to agents after three or four hours.

00:15:24: It's just.

00:15:24: it is tiring To make decisions all-day long And doing the work is almost meditative in comparison.

00:15:35: So I do think it's a challenge for us as humans, and that will make us stronger... ...and more effective ultimately to be getting really great at making decisions which again i think are the most important skill we can focus on.

00:15:56: And this brings us to leadership.

00:15:59: You mentioned Jeff Bezos, your upcoming framework.

00:16:02: the ecosystem paradigm challenges that traditional idea of organizations and hierarchies.

00:16:09: you described them much more as living systems with humans technology in increasingly AI agents interact?

00:16:17: If AI isn't in the room as a participant what does change about leadership?

00:16:25: Yes, so as I mentioned earlier you know i think most of us and we just are in this habit of leading assuming that humans are the only ones in the room or organization because thats what we now.

00:16:38: Of course Thats what we assume And many business leaders are not aware how capable AI is becoming How it can be more active participant.

00:16:50: take a more active role.

00:16:51: leadership needs to be of both humans and an AI agents.

00:16:58: And the way that's going to work is, AI needs to have all of the context That we have that Is largely undocumented unshared?

00:17:11: I mean there's so much that is assumed and understood as part Of any company's culture and way of operating trained or onboarded into the humans, but it's not documented sufficiently for AI or AI agents to actually make the best use of it.

00:17:31: And so a foundation for this new mode of leadership that I'm calling orchestration is really building.

00:17:38: this very robust comprehensive continuously updated context layer and i speak more about context engineering practice is a critical foundation.

00:17:53: And how do we learn context engineering?

00:17:56: Come to my keynote, you know I've been publishing about this...I think one of the most effective practices is just become reflective and frankly start trying delegating the work that you do to AI in a safe context, right?

00:18:17: I mean don't just like connect your agents too.

00:18:20: The...I don't know.

00:18:21: should link Your production pipeline or two year website.

00:18:25: necessarily You want it still be in this place of reviewing and making decisions about the outcome but the only way Just like when we bring on a new person say at New College graduate Or an intern onto our team are into our business.

00:18:42: we don't delegate to them very high stakes outcomes, right?

00:18:47: We give them tasks that they can execute safely make it safe for them just like with AI agents too fail.

00:18:56: Yeah I mean...we create a safe context.

00:19:00: um For then try and fail And get better over time Right but so i think the way of doing this is similar to how we want to do this with agents.

00:19:12: Now, With humans We almost always forget To provide sufficient context like when we are expert in doing something?

00:19:23: We forget most of our expertise because it's just so automatic right.

00:19:27: and So creating This context layer For humans And AI Agents In your team Your organization is challenging Because we Forget a lot Of what we know.

00:19:40: We give someone a brief, an AI or human.

00:19:44: And they'll go off and do something to make some assumptions about whatever we didn't tell them... ...and then will realize oh you didn't do the right thing because I didn't give enough context.. ..or that you don't have enough information.

00:19:57: So it becomes iteration Right?

00:20:01: Keep building context as trial-and-error happens same with agents as humans.

00:20:07: And so this context layer can be continuously updated and shared among all the human's, AI agents in an organization through this continual delegation.

00:20:20: You see how these pieces are fit together right?

00:20:22: There is delegating first before you start to do your work.

00:20:28: This is actually how we move from doers to deciders.

00:20:31: We delegate then make decisions about outcome And all of this is how we build up to the ability for leadership and other leaders, to orchestrate between humans and AIs.

00:20:47: We have sufficient context that we can actually reallocate work with humans and AI agents successfully because they share the same context.

00:20:56: Yeah, let's make this very practical for our audience.

00:20:59: For a manager executive or founder listening to us right now what the one thing they should start doing differently tomorrow morning?

00:21:07: So as I was getting into yes This idea of delegate first is that I describe in my keynote, but this is if we're asking you know how do we shift from Doers to Deciders?

00:21:19: or How do We treat AI agents as participants In our organizations?

00:21:24: i think That these are the fundamental questions and The way.

00:21:26: We get there Is We learn what ai's capable of with a first-hand experience mean.

00:21:33: There's no substitute for business leaders executives actually having A direct relationship a Direct Experience Of state-of-the art AI tools, harnesses models.

00:21:48: This is something else that's very different about AI from previous enterprise solutions or software tools in the organization.

00:21:56: You used to be able as a CEO To just say to the CTO or the CIO like just go procure some solution.

00:22:02: take care of That you're ins...you know and it's uh It's a support function within the business technology right?

00:22:10: AIs are just different In this way, in all the ways we've been talking about because it's not a tool.

00:22:15: It's more of an active participant.

00:22:18: just like We need to know and understand humans to lead Humans in an organization?

00:22:24: We as leaders need to no one understand AI To lead an AI-driven business And they're already seeing in The studies that have been emerging That companies are getting most benefit from AI Are ones whose leadership spends time to really understand and use state-of-the art AI.

00:22:47: And so company leadership needs to be engaged with this technology, So for everybody in the organization from CEO and C-suite on down delegate first whenever you have an idea about a piece of work that normally would do try delegating it into an agent.

00:23:08: Do this.

00:23:09: if need help setting up We can talk about it.

00:23:12: You can find someone in your organization who is really leaning in and try delegating that task to an agent, right?

00:23:21: If you're a CEO ,you probably have a chief of staff that normally delegate these kinds things too And I think In context Of working with the Chief of Staff A lot people are talking About having AI Chiefs of Staff Right ?

00:23:35: I'm not saying replace your human Chief of staff yet But if you Have one Great like start by collaborating with your chief of staff to, to start to delegate some of that to AI.

00:23:47: And that's how the AI will become most aligned with the outcomes you care about as a leader.

00:23:59: so delegate first.

00:24:00: Okay, I get it.

00:24:02: And I want to bring this back to Germany because we are having this conversation shortly before the Big Bang KI Festival in Berlin and there's tension.

00:24:10: I see many German companies.

00:24:13: We have enormous engineering expertise deep process knowledge strong industrial ecosystems and culture that takes quality very seriously.

00:24:22: But we also love planning.

00:24:25: German companies tend to build on deep process discipline and long planning cycles.

00:24:30: Is that an advantage or liability when AI is moving this fast?

00:24:36: Yes, it's a great question I think And you know huge respect for the impact in The success of the Great German Companies.

00:24:49: right i mean we've all around the world have had precision and focus of German companies, there's no question.

00:25:01: You know one of the things that I speak about in fact is opening up my current keynote... ...I speak about the challenge that AI and speed of execution is so fast compared with how slowly organizations make decisions.

00:25:18: you're speaking to the fact that there are very well-developed reasons why organizations take time making decisions, Why they plan so extensively before executing.

00:25:36: This gap between how fast AI executes and how slowly organizations make decisions I call this clock drift.

00:25:43: you know There's a sort of an execution clock speed And there is decision clock speed.

00:25:47: They run at different speeds.

00:25:50: This gap is currently creating a lot of incoherence within companies.

00:25:54: I speak to a lot Of leaders who will say You know Half of our people are building their own AI tools To get there worked on and we can't you can't even approve them, right?

00:26:07: And We have.

00:26:08: we can keep up with the approval in the organization So people would just do their own thing.

00:26:14: That could be great in the short term but it creates this tension an inco herance in the company.

00:26:19: so So, I consider it a core challenge that i'm looking to solve with the business leaders.

00:26:27: How do you bridge this gap?

00:26:31: Some of them are learning how to speed up organizational decision making by reducing the number of people required in their decisions which can help optimize decision-making on the human side.

00:26:47: Again, building this context layer enables AI to start making decisions that are consistent with the kinds of decisions humans would make in an organization so we can delegate more.

00:27:00: and So bringing the speed of AI's execution and human decision-making mean they're never going to happen at the same speed.

00:27:17: But if we create sufficient context, um... They can operate in a way that's harnessed you know?

00:27:24: That connects the two To get the best of AIs Speed And The Best Of Human Decision Making so.. It is still little bit an abstract answer but I think that Is the core challenge.

00:27:37: It's the core challenge.

00:27:38: I mean, because again we're not going to humans decide at a certain speed right?

00:27:45: We can decide more quickly and i think we can create better alignment with AI.

00:28:00: so that

00:28:02: Yeah, I see.

00:28:03: And one of the big questions behind this year's BigBanker E-Festival is whether Germany and Europe can actually help set the pace on AI rather than simply follow it.

00:28:13: from your international perspective?

00:28:15: Where do you see European companies ahead and where are they holding themselves back?

00:28:22: because we're not leaders in this?

00:28:24: Yes You know so spend a lot of time in Latin America sometime in the Middle East little bit in Asia, a lot of the

00:28:32: U.S.,

00:28:34: and personally I feel that it's risk at the level of humanity and business.

00:28:42: we really only have two major leaders in A.I.. China or the US right?

00:28:52: It is a risk because both countries are very different from each other but they also how would I say, obviously each country has its own strengths but it also has there's a lot of kind of risk i think with each country in different ways.

00:29:08: you know having to be such a powerful leader in this technology.

00:29:14: Clearly Europe and i think Germany at the center is very focused on How do we do this safely right?

00:29:23: In general Right!

00:29:25: what we care about most as humans and as cultures, as societies while also getting the benefit of AI.

00:29:33: I feel like Europe in the EU and Germany are doing very important work in the realm of safety.

00:29:51: Apply that right to the speed of European regulatory process and this beat of The frontier labs building these capabilities, right?

00:30:00: I mean they're very different speeds.

00:30:02: so Yeah my belief in my hope is that Each of these Sort of national and you know like multinational organizations.

00:30:18: You know US China EU Germany bring very different and complementary, critically important perspectives to the global conversation about AI.

00:30:31: I fully believe that The West has benefited from everything from GDPR to just every other aspect that Europe is focused on being deliberate, thoughtful or inclusive across many different vested interests.

00:30:50: Long story short, I feel like Germany and the EU has a really critical role to play.

00:30:54: And i think we just need To be working more closely across nations across Perspectives.

00:31:01: you know too find where there is common ground?

00:31:04: I Think one Really great Positive note I think about The current Moment Is that We're in A moment not Just with Social Media but I think With Technology More Broadly Where we are globally becoming more aware of the risks of kind of unregulated, uncontrolled technology.

00:31:25: I think social media is currently in spotlight you know?

00:31:28: In terms of problems that it causes for young people and all of us.

00:31:34: really It's an addictive substance right?

00:31:37: i think We're now at a place where we understand That's The Case With AI.

00:31:43: its going to be following very quickly And I think yeah, Germany EU has a very important role to play in helping bring that very grounded systematic precise perspective and human-grounded perspective.

00:32:02: Good to hear that from you.

00:32:05: For us Germans, Neil in just a few days You'll be joining us in Berlin at the Big Bank AI Festival.

00:32:12: Many of the questions we've discussed today will be playing out across the festival AI agents new organizational models leadership work business models and The question of what happens when AI moves From experimentation into the operating system of companies right now in Germany And you will be on the Jupiter stage without giving too much away.

00:32:35: What's one idea your most want people to leave Berlin with?

00:32:40: So actually say this in my keynote, The main thing that I really want them to live is we are a new world as AI becomes an active participant.

00:33:00: We're creating and we're experiencing these new dynamics in the systems that are our businesses.

00:33:07: A lot of these dynamics are emergent, they kind of unpredictable.

00:33:12: AI has unpredictable ways of behaving.

00:33:16: It can produce amazing outcomes.

00:33:17: it can produce Challenging or even dangerous outcomes.

00:33:22: so were on early stages learning how to harness is And also how to harness these clocks, you know.

00:33:29: Execution clock of AI and decision clock of humans.

00:33:33: So I say that we're in this world of participant dynamics... ...and i describe what I mean by dynamics.

00:33:41: It's kind a systems term.

00:33:44: Um..I think the German audience will be very familiar I expect right with the idea of managing complex systems.

00:33:52: Yes, yes The idea of Managing Complex Systems i think is something that the German business culture Is very familiar With Very expert in as you mentioned at the outset.

00:34:04: and so?

00:34:06: The phrase I use is That leadership Instead Of Planning And Executing to Plan It's Becoming Orchestration of Participant Dynamics And that sounds like a dense phrase in English, and it kind of is.

00:34:20: But I unpack what that actually looks like In my keynote.

00:34:25: So yeah i'm very excited to leave people with that Framing With an outline Of What That Looks Like With Some Practices That Allow People To Start To Build These Capabilities In Their Work From Leadership On Down And also to learn from German business leaders in the room how this lands for them, what they're seeing.

00:34:53: In terms of the clock drift and their organizations, the coherence or the incoherence?

00:34:57: The challenges because you mentioned sort international differences we talked about that I think were all in this together.

00:35:06: i mean there's something about AI That is so different powerful.

00:35:13: The only way through this is to come together at the level of humanity, right?

00:35:16: Each culture has a different orientation.

00:35:18: Different values that we all bring in a complementary way to this global human conversation.

00:35:28: and so That's what I hope to bring And to learn from the best of What's happening in Germany along those lines.

00:35:37: So we are looking forward.

00:35:39: And one final question.

00:35:41: you spent your life thinking about the near future, so I'm going to ask you for one prediction if we meet again at The Big Banker eFestival next year what will have changed?

00:35:53: About the way We work with AI and most executives still underestimate today.

00:35:59: i think we've touched on it.

00:36:01: um...I Think What Will change a lot in Next Year.

00:36:08: I think business takes a little while to catch up with the frontier of what's possible, right?

00:36:13: And i think that is.

00:36:16: it may sound like uh how would they say...a bad thing but actually there's very good positive aspect to this um to the velocity of adoption by business because its careful.

00:36:31: It is considered so in year from now..i think alot of whats currently at the frontier possibility will be more obvious, I think to business leaders.

00:36:44: At Big Bang Key next year the the obviousness of what we're talking about this here will become much more clear and i think we'll have another year of hopefully practicing this shift from doers-to-deciders—this practice of delegating first as an approach And then learning together at the individual level and together as organizations what it feels like to orchestrate humans in AI.

00:37:16: So I think that really, next year Aisha is going be about developing a sense of what that feels like... ...and i think greater comfort-level with how AI can participate in our businesses way that is aligned with the strategies that we're executing, because business strategy ultimately I think it's not going to change that much.

00:37:43: What is gonna change his or ability to execute at speed in a safe and reliable way?

00:37:50: So i think that's a lot of conversation for this coming year.

00:37:54: Okay!

00:37:54: I'm excited Neil thank you very much.

00:37:57: so if not just what AI can do today, but it means for the organizations we are building tomorrow.

00:38:05: Make sure you join us!

00:38:07: Neil I'm looking forward to seeing you in Berlin and everyone listening.

00:38:11: thank you

00:38:16: so much for joining us.